I think the reasons you outline here are the exact reasons The Last Jedi is my favorite SW movie. It is made by a fan, but a critical fan. Rian Johnson's near-masterpiece was very much trying to find a middle ground between pro-SW and anti-SW. That clearly didn't work for some people, especially when the movie decided to actually tackle how war can impact the economy and how there are always those who profit from human conflict and suffering with the Canto Bight subplot.
TLJ in that regard is very much a precursor to Gilroy's series, a SW movie with easily the best writing, the best monologues, and some legitimate criticism of SW as a genre. So, yeah, I think SW needs to be made by people who aren't SW fans.
I really thought there was a great story in TLJ with the war profiteering, I was just disappointed it was never really able to be fleshed out. Don't know if it wasn't written, or just cut for time.
I suspect Johnson only had so much real estate/running time to do that and so had DJ carry that idea to the end. Loved his final line. Just a simple 'maybe.'
Not being a fan of a franchise can sometimes work to the franchise's advantage, as Gilroy has shown. In that scenario, you do not feel beholden to the creator's vision, and you are able to view the work with fresh eyes and attention to what is flawed about the concept in order to fix it.
A fan's production, by necessity, is either directly or subtly going to be biased based on the fact that they ARE a fan. If, for example, I write a novel based on an IP I'm a fan of, it will be influenced by my knowledge of the IP involved, and therefore swayed by the creator's vision. Someone else who is not a fan of the IP will not come in with this knowledge and will not let it sway them in the creative process.
"Star Wars" has gone in its lifetime from the absolute monarchy of George Lucas to the scattered city-states of the Disney employees overseeing it now. That means it will no longer be beholden exclusively to Lucas' vision. Which is what older fans know and why they are upset with the current governance.
I’ve had this same thought. When a showrunner or director expressed their deep love for some IP they’re taking over, warning signals start going off in my brain. It’s a sign that the project will be filled with Easter eggs and fan service. That it’ll feel like a cover band instead of something original.
I really liked season one, and I like most things Tony Gilroy has done. Looking forward to season 2.
When the Star Wars franchise began, it was startling in its ambitions, world-making and unself-conscious affection for heroes. For those of us who were closer to Lucas in age, it resurrected the love of modernity that was a powerful influence from the late Fifties through much of the Sixties. Boomers grew up in an America that was deeply conformist in ways that are difficult to imagine today. Mainstream departures from traditional styles and viewpoints were rare.
Young people mostly hated the confinement and eagerly embraced modernity — things that were new seemed, well, really fresh, exciting and inherently better. New technology, new openness and new freedom were intoxicating. As the Sixties wore on and the Vietnam War, the Civil Rights movement, assassinations and the emerging drug scene curdled feelings about the future. The darkness of the Seventies was reflected in much of the art of the time yet most Hollywood films were seen as commercial, old-fashioned and square. College campuses showed old and foreign films instead of the pablum from Hollywood. Even then, little filmed entertainment reflected the experience or interests of young people.
Stars Wars exploded the malaise of that moment with an unabashed love of technology, heroism and youth. While a throwback in some respects, the identification that we had with the fight against dark, authoritarian power reflected the resistance to “the establishment” that many in our generation felt. Its embrace of modernity reminded us of our earlier appreciation of all things new.
Yet, these films land differently today and feel too smooth, too anodyne and too hokey after two generations of far more nuanced and cynical entertainment. Indeed, they now feel straight rather than ground-breaking, commercial instead of realistic.
Andor, though, is different, and reflects a current day sensibility rather than that which my fellow Boomers and I brought to Star Wars in the late Seventies. The Andor series does not rush breathlessly from one iconic moment to the next, offering character development instead of comic book personalities. The inevitable life moments of death, compromise and regret are significant departures.
Its hard to see where the franchise can go from here. From Episodes I to III through all the many prequels, most of the series fill out the backstory but new, post-Return of the Jedi developments are necessary. If approached in the same manner as Andor, there might be some legs to Star Wars yet.
Well said, and so true! I too grew up with Star Wars, saw the original when I was 11 and it got me through so much. Andor, because it's true to itself and to right now, makes me feel like I did way back then: like even though the world is run by a bunch of nut jobs, there is hope, there is possibility, and we keep fighting.
By now I've repeated my opinion on this matter ad nauseam, but the original trilogy is unsurpassed. Yes, I like Andor to a point, but it just doesn't feel like Star Wars to me. It's dystopian sci-fi rather than space fantasy. And it's television, which to me rather emasculates it. Star Wars is for the cinema first and foremost, and that's a hill I will die on.
But I give full credit to Gilroy et al for trying something different within the Star Wars universe. If we must stay there (and frankly, I still struggle to find anything of artistic merit beyond the original three, plus The Last Jedi) then let's radically depart from what came before.
I did not know that about Gilroy, but it makes perfect sense! Freed from any kind of fan or even heavy brand allegiance, he can tell an engaging, pivotal narrative on his own terms. This completely makes all the difference. And if you're leading from a simple framework of "The Empire is vast and utterly consumed with the consolidation of power at all costs," you don't need Skywalkers at all. There are plenty of communities in the galaxy with their own stories to tell about life under the Empire, right? We're rewatching Season 1 and I'm getting so much more out of it because I had forgotten a lot of the nuances and also the current political climate. I agree: best non-Skywalker focused story in the canon.
I think the reasons you outline here are the exact reasons The Last Jedi is my favorite SW movie. It is made by a fan, but a critical fan. Rian Johnson's near-masterpiece was very much trying to find a middle ground between pro-SW and anti-SW. That clearly didn't work for some people, especially when the movie decided to actually tackle how war can impact the economy and how there are always those who profit from human conflict and suffering with the Canto Bight subplot.
TLJ in that regard is very much a precursor to Gilroy's series, a SW movie with easily the best writing, the best monologues, and some legitimate criticism of SW as a genre. So, yeah, I think SW needs to be made by people who aren't SW fans.
I really thought there was a great story in TLJ with the war profiteering, I was just disappointed it was never really able to be fleshed out. Don't know if it wasn't written, or just cut for time.
I suspect Johnson only had so much real estate/running time to do that and so had DJ carry that idea to the end. Loved his final line. Just a simple 'maybe.'
Not being a fan of a franchise can sometimes work to the franchise's advantage, as Gilroy has shown. In that scenario, you do not feel beholden to the creator's vision, and you are able to view the work with fresh eyes and attention to what is flawed about the concept in order to fix it.
A fan's production, by necessity, is either directly or subtly going to be biased based on the fact that they ARE a fan. If, for example, I write a novel based on an IP I'm a fan of, it will be influenced by my knowledge of the IP involved, and therefore swayed by the creator's vision. Someone else who is not a fan of the IP will not come in with this knowledge and will not let it sway them in the creative process.
"Star Wars" has gone in its lifetime from the absolute monarchy of George Lucas to the scattered city-states of the Disney employees overseeing it now. That means it will no longer be beholden exclusively to Lucas' vision. Which is what older fans know and why they are upset with the current governance.
I’ve had this same thought. When a showrunner or director expressed their deep love for some IP they’re taking over, warning signals start going off in my brain. It’s a sign that the project will be filled with Easter eggs and fan service. That it’ll feel like a cover band instead of something original.
I really liked season one, and I like most things Tony Gilroy has done. Looking forward to season 2.
When the Star Wars franchise began, it was startling in its ambitions, world-making and unself-conscious affection for heroes. For those of us who were closer to Lucas in age, it resurrected the love of modernity that was a powerful influence from the late Fifties through much of the Sixties. Boomers grew up in an America that was deeply conformist in ways that are difficult to imagine today. Mainstream departures from traditional styles and viewpoints were rare.
Young people mostly hated the confinement and eagerly embraced modernity — things that were new seemed, well, really fresh, exciting and inherently better. New technology, new openness and new freedom were intoxicating. As the Sixties wore on and the Vietnam War, the Civil Rights movement, assassinations and the emerging drug scene curdled feelings about the future. The darkness of the Seventies was reflected in much of the art of the time yet most Hollywood films were seen as commercial, old-fashioned and square. College campuses showed old and foreign films instead of the pablum from Hollywood. Even then, little filmed entertainment reflected the experience or interests of young people.
Stars Wars exploded the malaise of that moment with an unabashed love of technology, heroism and youth. While a throwback in some respects, the identification that we had with the fight against dark, authoritarian power reflected the resistance to “the establishment” that many in our generation felt. Its embrace of modernity reminded us of our earlier appreciation of all things new.
Yet, these films land differently today and feel too smooth, too anodyne and too hokey after two generations of far more nuanced and cynical entertainment. Indeed, they now feel straight rather than ground-breaking, commercial instead of realistic.
Andor, though, is different, and reflects a current day sensibility rather than that which my fellow Boomers and I brought to Star Wars in the late Seventies. The Andor series does not rush breathlessly from one iconic moment to the next, offering character development instead of comic book personalities. The inevitable life moments of death, compromise and regret are significant departures.
Its hard to see where the franchise can go from here. From Episodes I to III through all the many prequels, most of the series fill out the backstory but new, post-Return of the Jedi developments are necessary. If approached in the same manner as Andor, there might be some legs to Star Wars yet.
Excellent comment!
Well said, and so true! I too grew up with Star Wars, saw the original when I was 11 and it got me through so much. Andor, because it's true to itself and to right now, makes me feel like I did way back then: like even though the world is run by a bunch of nut jobs, there is hope, there is possibility, and we keep fighting.
By now I've repeated my opinion on this matter ad nauseam, but the original trilogy is unsurpassed. Yes, I like Andor to a point, but it just doesn't feel like Star Wars to me. It's dystopian sci-fi rather than space fantasy. And it's television, which to me rather emasculates it. Star Wars is for the cinema first and foremost, and that's a hill I will die on.
But I give full credit to Gilroy et al for trying something different within the Star Wars universe. If we must stay there (and frankly, I still struggle to find anything of artistic merit beyond the original three, plus The Last Jedi) then let's radically depart from what came before.
I did not know that about Gilroy, but it makes perfect sense! Freed from any kind of fan or even heavy brand allegiance, he can tell an engaging, pivotal narrative on his own terms. This completely makes all the difference. And if you're leading from a simple framework of "The Empire is vast and utterly consumed with the consolidation of power at all costs," you don't need Skywalkers at all. There are plenty of communities in the galaxy with their own stories to tell about life under the Empire, right? We're rewatching Season 1 and I'm getting so much more out of it because I had forgotten a lot of the nuances and also the current political climate. I agree: best non-Skywalker focused story in the canon.
The show is simply miraculous.